Why is the menu in English?
Good day, dear guests of our site!
Lately there have been a lot of questions about English letters on the site, I wanted to clarify the situation regarding this - unfortunately, it is no longer possible to fight with them now, since the domain on which this site is made is located abroad and the company that owns it refused Russian-language support for the site, so the menu was translated into English, but we responded to these inconveniences and created a new website, its address SPN1.RU everything is in Russian, and also implemented for ease of use great amount tasks, starting with information about SPN and an intuitive interface, and ending with assistance when placing an order.
Which nozzle to choose?
When choosing a nozzle, everything depends on the characteristics of the future column, such as the internal diameter - which, roughly speaking, is responsible for productivity, and height - responsible for the degree of purification, as well as the production tasks assigned to the column.
In any column, you can put any nozzle, and everything will work, another question is how...., so when choosing, you need to be guided by the following rule: the smaller the nozzle, the higher the quality, but the lower the productivity, and vice versa, the larger the nozzle, the higher the speed selection, but worse separation.
I would also like to draw your attention to the fact that all advice on choosing SPN provided by our specialists should not be taken as a direct guide to action, and are just introductory material as part of assistance in choosing a spiral-prismatic packing for distillation and mass transfer columns.
What is “stainless steel”, chemical composition and properties?
Stainless steel or "stainless steel" is a complex alloy steel that is resistant to corrosion in aggressive environments. The main alloying element is chromium Cr (share in the alloy 12-20%). To enhance corrosion resistance, nickel (Ni), titanium (Ti), molybdenum (Mo), niobium (Nb) are also added to the alloy various quantities depending on the required properties of the alloy.
The degree of corrosion resistance of the alloy can be determined by the content of the main elements of the alloy - chromium and nickel. If the chromium content in the alloy is more than 12%, this is already stainless metal V normal conditions and in mildly aggressive environments. With a chromium content of more than 17% in the alloy, it is a corrosion-resistant alloy in aggressive environments (for example, in 50% concentrated nitric acid).
What wire is the nozzle made of?
The nozzle is made of stainless wire grades 12Х18Н10Т (AISI 321) and 08Х18Н10 (AISI 304), thickness 0.2 0.25 and 0.3 mm. When purchasing each batch of wire material, the supplier attaches a quality certificate, so you can be confident in the characteristics of the wire we purchase, and hence in the quality of the nozzle we produce.
SPN heptagon is made from stainless steel magnetic wire
grade 12Х18Н10Т (Х) (AISI 321).
Copper SPN is made from high-quality copper wire 0.25 0.3 and 0.35 mm. grade M1 of domestic production with a copper content of 99.95%.
Why is the heptagon magnetic?
There is an opinion that “stainless steel” is not magnetic and, accordingly, the main test for “stainless steel” is applying a magnet to it. However, this is actually not the case as there are so many magnetic grades of stainless steel, it can be either magnetic (ferritic grade) or non-magnetic (austenitic grade). In this case, magnetic properties do not affect performance characteristics stainless steel, in particular for corrosion resistance. The difference in magnetic properties is a consequence of the difference in the internal structure of steels, which directly depends on chemical composition stainless steel
Food grade stainless steel?
“Food grade stainless steel” is a common noun, in our country there is a special State standard there is no such thing as food grade stainless steel. Therefore, many find it difficult to say which grades of steel can be classified as “food grade” and which cannot. So practically any existing stainless alloys can theoretically be classified as those that are suitable for storing or preparing food.
Nozzle sizes?
The nozzle consists of pieces of a prismatic spiral twisted from stainless steel wire material with dimensions of 5x5 4x4 3.5x3.5 3x3 and 2x2 mm. (the length of the segment is indicated conditionally and may differ ± 20%, which does not at all affect the characteristics, performance and performance of the nozzle).
It is possible to manufacture a nozzle according to your requirements: wire diameter, nozzle diameter, material, conditions are discussed individually.
How to make an order?
To order a spiral-prismatic nozzle, you must indicate through the form feedback(tab contacts), or by e-mail: [email protected]
- The size of the nozzle you are interested in, twire thickness, material (copper or stainless steel)
- Number of SPNs
- FULL NAME. (fully)
- Address (with index)
- And also inform us about the form of payment that is convenient for you and
Deliveries from those described on the tabs delivery And payment.
You can also place an order on our new website. SPN1.RU
What is the bulk density of the nozzle, and what is it?
The bulk mass of a nozzle is the mass per unit volume of freely poured material. The bulk density of the packing is indicated on the website, taking into account slight shrinkage when compacting the SPN during loading into the column, and can vary ± 5-10%.
SPN made of stainless steel.
- 2x2mm. from wire 0.2mm. ................................1500g. in 1 liter.
- 3x3mm. from wire 0.2mm. ................................1000g. in 1 liter.
- 3x3mm. from wire 0.2mm. (seven-sided) ......... 900g. in 1 liter.
- 3x3mm. from wire 0.3mm. ................................1500g. in 1 liter.
- 3.5x3.5mm. from wire 0.25mm. ........................1000gr. in 1 liter.
- 4x4mm. from wire 0.3mm. ................................1100gr. in 1 liter.
- 5x5mm. from wire 0.3mm. ................................1000g. in 1 liter.
SPN made of copper wire
- 3x3mm. from wire 0.25mm. ........................... 1400g. in 1 liter.
- 4x4mm. from wire 0.3mm. ........................... 1300g. in 1 liter.
- 5x5mm. from wire 0.35mm. ........................... 1200g. in 1 liter.
Why do we sell in kilograms and not liters?
Our customers often ask the question - why do we sell SPN in kilograms and not in liters like other manufacturers?
In the case of a nozzle, a kilogram is a constant value, but a liter is not; if you simply pour it freely, the volume will be one, and if you shake it down, it will be different (it will decrease).
Delivery methods and costs?
Delivery throughout Russia is carried out transport companies(by advance payment). Delivery to shopping center is free (delivery cost throughout Russia is on average 300 - 450 rubles).
To send by the Transport Company you will need:
- FULL NAME. fully.
- Delivery city.
- Recipient's passport data (passport series and number only).
- Recipient's contact phone number.
It is possible to send by Russian Post both cash on delivery and prepayment (cost on average 300-500 rubles depending on the weight of the parcel, region, and method of payment).
To send by Russian Post you will need:
- FULL NAME. fully.
- Recipient's address with zip code.
When sending by Russian Post, the cost of shipping is added to the cost of the nozzle, since we pay for it immediately upon delivery.
sending.
When sending by post by cash on delivery, upon receipt of the parcel, postage fees of 50 rubles are charged. for cash on delivery, and 4% of the cash on delivery amount.
Shipping to the near and far abroad is carried out with advance payment by Russian Post, the cost is $10-30 (depending on the weight of the parcel and the recipient's country).
Possible delivery to Belarus, Armenia and Kazakhstan TK KIT and DPD (cost Minsk from 300 rubles, Astana from 450 rubles).
Payment options?
When sending the nozzle by cash on delivery (Russian Post), payment is made at the post office upon receipt.
It is also possible to pay:
- Sberbank (both by transfer from card to card, and in any branch of Sberbank).
- Yandex money
- PayPal
- Western Union
- Golden Crown and Hummingbird (translations from neighboring countries).
- Payment upon receipt by Russian Post, TC DPD or SDEK (cash on delivery).
- Cashless payments.
With these payment methods, shipping is carried out both by Russian Post and by transport companies at your request.
How quickly do we send the nozzle?
The company's rules establish the following terms for shipment and dispatch of goods - 2 times a week (every Monday and Thursday, if they do not fall on the weekend or holidays), in practice, as a rule, everything happens faster - we ship as quickly as possible, or on the day of payment, or at most the next day, it doesn’t always work out, but we try.
Etching, and mass fraction etching?
Etching - group technological methods for controlled removal of the surface layer of material from the workpiece under the influence of specially selected reagents and equipment.
To improve the holding capacity and wettability, our nozzle is etched, the etching mass fraction is 15-20%.
The copper nozzle is not etched, since copper is not an alloy, and therefore etching will not bring the desired effect.
Why do you need passport data when sending a TC?
The requirement of the Labor Code when sending and receiving cargo is to provide passport data of both the sender and the recipient (the cargo is issued according to the passport).
How many springs do you need for a harness?
From 1 meter of confusion, on average, a wad of 30 - 40 mm is obtained. (depending on the rolling density), a 2" drawer will require 2 meters of spring for each wad.
Why didn't they put a spring for the harness?
When purchasing more than 3 kg. any attachment as a bonus (free of charge), at the buyer’s request, we complete the package with a spring for the harness (but no more than 5 meters), we kindly ask you, when discussing the details of the order, to inform us that the harness is needed, and also how much of it is needed (if you don’t know how much, describe the characteristics we will equip the columns with the required quantity), since we do not put it indiscriminately for everyone, and not because it is a pity, but because someone has absolutely no need for it, and we will put it in every parcel - this is definitely unnecessary. Please do not grind your teeth and do not hit your chest with your heels after receiving a parcel without springs (they say you bought more than 3 kg, but they didn’t put the harness in), if you didn’t bother to report that it was needed.
You can also purchase a spring for a tangle; upon purchase the cost is 100 rubles. for 1 meter.
If you paid for a spring to make a tangle, but for some reason we didn’t send it, write to us and we’ll fix it (of course, we’ll cover the shipping costs).
How to fill and compact the nozzle?
The nozzle is filled in small batches of 100-200g. There is no need to compact it under any circumstances, you can shake it a little (without fanaticism), the SPN will compact a little, this will be enough, after several shoulder straps you can open it top part columns and if the nozzle shrinks a little more, just add more.
Bulk prices?
Prices for wholesale supplies are discussed on a case-by-case basis, tell us what volumes and what attachment you are interested in (per week, month, quarter), we set an individual price.
How to wash the nozzle?
Before loading the nozzle into the column, for the final removal of dust, oil, etching products, etc. We recommend boiling it with detergent(add very little product - a few drops), wash off the fragrance, then boil in a soda solution, then rinse well in running water.
Copper SPN must be boiled first with detergent, and then with citric acid to remove oxides.
Be that as it may, everything else will be washed out by the column at increased pre-flooding capacity with simple purified water.
Sent a request - the supplier does not respond?
If you have not received a response, it means that most likely something went wrong when sending your application (the feedback form did not work correctly, the mail server did not work, the e-mail for feedback from you was incorrectly specified), the letter went to spam.
There are several solutions - check the spam folder, carefully looking through the list of letters, duplicate the application directly to the mail [email protected], send your application via the feedback form, once again carefully filling out the necessary information to contact you, contact information, you can also call the numbers indicated on the tab contacts numbers and clarify the reason.
Attention owners mailboxes GMAIL!!!
Recently, cases have become more frequent when this mail system throws our letters into SPAM, in this regard, we kindly ask you to check this section when you are waiting for a letter from us (calculation, information on ordering, shipping, availability of attachments, etc.) Our letter ended up there after all, for correct correspondence in the future, pull it out from there by clicking the “not spam” button.
A very long time ago, when we just started selling our distillation columns, few people were interested in what filled their internal volume - only one thing was important, they give good alcohol, or not. Then a large tribe of home-made people appeared who were already interested in the type of nozzle (Sulzer, Levin nozzle (SPN), Stedman, Raschig rings), as well as the question: “which nozzle is the best?” . We explain these points as best we can on our website, but, unfortunately, not everyone hears us, and many still think that there is only one “super nozzle” for all occasions. Here is an example of a typical statement: “SPN-3 is cool!”
SPN is made by continuously winding wire on a rotating pyramidal mandrel. A prismatic spiral comes off the mandrel, which is then chopped into elements. Bulk material made from such elements is called a spiral-prismatic nozzle (SPN).
In SPN-3, the number indicates the diameter of the circle described around the spiral, and many are not even interested in the diameter of the wire from which it is made. But the diameter of the wire is one of the most important factors in the effectiveness of SPN, although there are others. Let's try to figure it out. Let us recall that the rectification properties (or simply efficiency) of any packing are understood mainly as two of its characteristics, which determine the appearance of the column and its capabilities:
- nozzle capacity. Characterizes the relationship between the diameter of the column and its productivity.
- separating ability of the nozzle. Characterizes the relationship between the height of the column and its reflux ratio.
For a specific column, if we exclude from consideration the material and surface structure of the wire, the effectiveness of the SPN is determined by its geometry.
Mandrel shape
In the manufacture of SPN, the wire is wound onto a rotating pyramidal mandrel; the base of this truncated pyramid can be any “angular” geometric figure, which ensures “self-adhesion” of the wire with the mandrel: plate, triangle, square, rectangle, rhombus, ellipse.
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At one time, A.I. Levin and A.S. Zheleznyak introduced the dxL criterion to analyze the effectiveness of the spiral-prismatic nozzle, where d is the size of the edge of the spiral on the mandrel, and L is the length of the spiral element. Those. the geometry of the spiral was “tied” to the geometry of the mandrel.
The shape of the base of the mandrel determines the shape of the future spiral, but not completely. Therefore, it is impossible to immediately say which form of the mandrel base will provide maximum efficiency the nozzle obtained on it. Below, to simplify the explanation, we will consider mandrels with regular polygons at the base of the pyramid.
In our studies, as a criterion, we use real geometric characteristics elements of the nozzle resulting from its manufacture.
They are the ones who determine the effectiveness of SPN.
SPN geometry
Angle at the top of the turn
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Even if there are regular polygons (plate, triangle, square) at the base of the mandrel, the shape of the SPN produced on them will still be very diverse. The formation of the spiral begins at the base of the mandrel (the diagram shows a triangular base). |
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 With each revolution, a new turn of wire is placed on the base of the prism and squeezes out the previous turns from it. |
However, when the spiral leaves the mandrel, it unwinds due to the elasticity of the wire. Fig.1
rigidity (elasticity, hardening) of the wire; degree of wire tension during winding. Figure 1 shows a drawing of a “free” spiral turn. Its geometry (and the shape of the entire spiral) is completely determined by the angle φ at the vertices of each angle. |
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 It is important to note that due to the “opening” of the angles, the geometry of the coil can be very different from the geometry of the base of the mandrel on which it was obtained. |
 Those. the turn shown in the drawing could be obtained both on a plate (Fig. 2) with a large “opening” of the angle - φ=0º+A2 (very hard wire), and on a triangle (Fig. 3) with a small “opening” angle - φ=60º+A3 (very soft wire). |
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Fig.2
We placed the diameter of the spiral (D) and the diameter of the wire (d) in one section, since according to theoretical formulas (and experimental results) both of these sizes affect both the free area of the nozzle (an analogue of its throughput) and the specific surface of the nozzle (an analogue of its separating ability).
For example, if the nozzle element has a diameter of D = 3 mm, length L = 3 mm and is made of wire with d = 0.5 mm, then the nozzle is more correctly called SPN-3x3x0.5, since, for example, SPN-3x3x0.3 has a greater throughput than SPN-3x3x0.5 at the same angle φ.
But, if you compare two SPNs with equal throughput capacities(these are not equal diameters D), then the specific surface area will be higher for the nozzle that is made of thinner wire.
Element length
The spiral coming off the mandrel is cut into elements, the length or number of turns of which may vary. For some reason, it is believed that the length of an element L should be equal to its diameter L=D (or L/D=1). We will not argue about this, although in our experiments it seemed to us that L/D = 0.75 is better.
Spiral pitch
It is believed that the pitch of the spiral winding should be equal to the diameter of the wire - winding turn to turn. However, to improve the efficiency of the nozzle, it is desirable to provide an interturn gap that does not exceed the wire diameter d.
But you have to make a “sacrifice”. The fact is that, with small d, it is technologically difficult to maintain the accuracy of the interturn gap. And its excess leads to deterioration operational properties SPN (tangling, excessive pliability of the layer), and as a result, a decrease in the efficiency of the nozzle (due to the ambiguity of laying, lateral penetration of neighboring elements into each other).
Appearance of SPN
Now, having understood the geometry of the turns, you can see how the appearance(shape) SPN depending on the angle φ at the vertices in the turn after winding (not in the mandrel!).
For ease of perception, the shapes of the nozzles in all pictures d, D and R are the same.
Note that the options for SPN forms presented below are purely illustrative, and some of them are practically impossible to implement.
| φ=10º |  |
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φ=15º |  |
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| φ=20º |  |
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φ=25º |  |
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| φ=30º |  |
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φ=40º |  |
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| φ=50º |  |
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φ=55º |  |
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| φ=60º |  |
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φ=62º |  |
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| φ=65º |  |
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φ=70º |  |
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| φ=75º |  |
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φ=90º |  |
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| φ=95º |  |
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φ=100º |  |
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The experiments carried out show that at fixed d, D and R, the efficiency of the nozzle also depends on the shape of the spiral, that is, the angle φ at the vertices in the coil.
Distillers have learned to use all sorts of devices to ensure the purity of homemade alcohol. Among them is the Selivanenko spiral-prismatic nozzle (SPN). In this article you will get acquainted with the principle of operation of the nozzle, learn about its advantages and nuances.
The Selivanenko nozzle (SPN) is a device for distillation columns, a filter element that separates difficult-to-separate mixtures. Made from high-strength copper and stainless steel wire. It looks like a small spiral, bent at different angles.
Used to improve the purification of moonshine from impurities - fusel oils (substances with high temperature boiling). Helps obtain pure alcohol, which is used for drinking, creating homemade tinctures, liqueurs and liqueurs.
Strengthening film columns are filled with nozzles to produce alcoholic distillate and alcohol thanks to mash and distillation columns.
In order to retain the largest volume of phlegm on the surface, to allow the flow of alcohol vapor to pass unhindered, the water-alcohol mixture is divided into different fractions due to the interaction of reflux and steam.
The separation is directly dependent on the surface area of the nozzle.
It is poured into the column and compacted little by little every 10 cm. For convenience, the handle of a shovel is used.
Is there an alternative?
It is worth paying special attention to Panchenkov nozzles (RPN). RPN is another type of device that is used in home distillers and homemade distillation columns to increase the strength and purity of alcohol.
It is made in the form of a mesh with a special weave of thin wires. The principle of heat and mass transfer is used to purify alcohol vapors. This exchange occurs when two opposing flows collide - condensed reflux and new vapors. Interacting, fusel oils return to the cube, and the alcohol passes higher. On-load tap-changer attachments are actively used in light industry.
Unlike the SPN, the on-load tap-changer is inferior to the first in terms of its service life, because her weaving from thin wires Easily damaged and difficult to clean. But, at the same time, the cleaning abilities of SPN are lower than those of the Panchenkov nozzle.
That's why On-load tap-changer is more often used in expensive distillation and mash columns. The on-load tap-changer is easier to operate. SPN allows alcohol producers to significantly reduce the height distillation column. High wettability and hydraulic resistance of the material are some of the important indicators of the effectiveness of the nozzle.
Both varieties are market leaders. RPN and SPN have their own advantages and have almost no disadvantages, except for service life or ease of cleaning. But if you treat them delicately, they will fulfill their purpose for a long time and regularly.
The video contains information about the difference between SPN and RPN:
Where to buy and how much does it cost?
As a rule, a spiral-prismatic nozzle (SPN) by Igor Lvovich Selivanenko can be bought in specialized stores for moonshiners and distillers. If there is no such store in your area, you can now easily order it online. It is enough to enter a query in the search engine and the search engine will find hundreds of online stores on the required subject.
The cost ranges from 1500 to 3000 rubles (per liter). The price depends on the material and size.
The SPN is not inferior in quality to its rival - the Panchenkov nozzle (RPN). The SPN is not very dense and this allows it not to block the path of steam. This type of development of a spiral-prismatic mesh has a huge number positive feedback from experienced moonshiners.
Payment online
- Bank cards
From the Mir card you can pay a maximum of 5,000 at a time and 15,000 per month. From a Visa, MasterCard or Maestro card - a maximum of 250,000 at a time, per month - 500,000 rubles. - Electronic money
Yandex Money: at one time you can pay from an identified wallet - up to 250,000, from an anonymous wallet - up to 15,000.
How does the return work?
- We send the payment order to the bank where the current account of our organization is opened.- The bank transfers the required amount to our personal account for refunds in Yandex.Checkout.
- Yandex Cashier debits money from your personal account and returns it to your bank card or wallet - depending on how you paid.
Payment upon pickup
- Possible after receiving confirmation of the availability of the goods you ordered in the store.
- Our manager will inform you about this by calling you by phone after you place your order.
- Payment for an order with the selected delivery method “Pickup of the order” is made in cash at the cash desk of our store.
Delivery
Delivery methods in Moscow and the Moscow region
Standard delivery by courier in Moscow within the Moscow Ring Road:
- Delivery of goods worth less than RUB 3,000. - 400 rubles.
- Delivery of goods costing from 3,000 - 5,000 rubles. - 300 rubles .
- Goods delivery: total cost more than 5,000 rubles. - FOR FREE .
Same-day delivery in Moscow within the Moscow Ring Road costs from 600 rubles, depending on the size and weight of the order.
Standard courier delivery in the Moscow region:
- Delivery within the Moscow region up to 5 km. from MKAD – 600 rub.
- Delivery within the Moscow region from 5 km. up to 10 km. from MKAD – 700 rub.
- Delivery within the Moscow region from 10 km. up to 20 km. from MKAD – 800 rub.
- Delivery within the Moscow region from 20 km. up to 30 km. from MKAD – 900 rub.
- Delivery within the Moscow region from 30 km. up to 40 km. from MKAD – 1100 rub.
- Delivery within the Moscow region from 40 km. up to 50 km. from MKAD – 1200 rub.
- Delivery in the Moscow region from 50 km from the Moscow Ring Road - 1200 rub. + 25 rub. per kilometer.
Pickup from retail stores website
After placing an order, a ShopBarn manager will contact you to confirm the availability of all ordered items and agree on a pickup date for the order. Order processing takes place in work time store, order assembly takes from several hours to several days, depending on the availability of ordered items in the warehouse of the pickup store. After agreeing on the order, the order is placed on reserve for 3 days.
You can put different packings into a distillation column and it will work, but in different ways. When choosing a filler for a column, you need to take into account its characteristics (pipe diameter, its height). Fillers for distillation columns are different, the most popular of them are: (SPN) Selivanenko spiral prismatic nozzle, (RPN) Panchenkova, Raschig rings, ordinary kitchen sponges made of stainless steel, broken glass, and etc.
The nozzle is necessary to hold the largest volume of phlegm on its surface, and also to allow the flow of alcohol vapor to pass freely. Interacting between reflux and steam, they ensure the separation of the water-alcohol mixture into various fractions. Therefore, the larger the surface area of the nozzle, the better the separation will be.
1. SPN
Spiral prismatic fillers have been invented quite recently. SPN Selivanenko was the first of them. Now some modifications of this attachment have appeared, for example the 10-sided Diogenes SPN. Currently, the spiral prismatic nozzle is considered the best for use in home moonshine stills and distillation columns. For household mash columns and distillers, it is better to use copper SPN; according to some data, it softens the taste of the distillate.
SPN is made of stainless wire with a thickness of 0.2 0.25 and 0.3 mm. Consists of 4x4 segments; 3.5x3.5; 3x3 and 2x2 mm prismatic spiral. The smaller the nozzle, the higher the quality of the resulting product, but the lower the productivity, and with a large nozzle, the selection speed increases, but the quality of separation is lower.
The nozzle is poured into the column and lightly compacted every 10 cm; for this it is convenient to use the handle of a shovel. For a household column, it is easier to purchase a nozzle from a trusted seller, because Recently, many fakes have appeared on the market. The price of the Selivanenko SPN nozzle is about 1500-2500 rubles per liter, 1 liter depending on the type of wire, weighs approximately 1.2 kg.
You can make SPN with your own hands at home. To do this, you need stainless steel wire, a winding device (usually a drill or screwdriver), and the finished cut nozzle must be etched.
Video on how to make SPN with your own hands
2. On-load tap-changer
The second most popular Panchenkov attachment is used in home distillers and homemade distillation columns to increase the strength and increase the degree of purification of alcohol. The RPN (regular wire nozzle) was created at JSC Tupolev. This nozzle high efficiency, it is used in many expensive household stills and rectifiers.
Convenient to use, the rolled nozzle can be easily inserted and removed from the column for cleaning. The on-load tap-changer is woven from stainless thread with a thickness of 0.13 mm. Zigzag weaving, very thin, gaps between threads no more than 1 mm. Used in pipes with an internal diameter of at least 30 mm. The regular nozzle has proven itself excellent among home distillers.
3. Rashig's rings
Raschig rings are made of ceramic, metal or glass with a rough surface so that the phlegm stays on the surface longer. This type has long been used in distillation columns. Raschig rings are less popular, but are nevertheless used in many devices as an attachment.
4.Washcloths
Most a budget option attachments - ordinary kitchen sink scrubbers, which are sold in any supermarket. They are usually made of stainless steel, so they will be suitable as a filler for columns. Of course, the quality of the alcohol will be an order of magnitude lower, and during distillation, changes in the taste and smell of the alcohol may occur from the sponges.